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Simulation #72 Toni Lane Casserly – Decentralized Governance



boom what's up everyone welcome to simulation I'm your host Don sake on today we have the incredible pleasure of sitting down with Tony Lane Casserly hello thank you for joining us thank you for coming on the show really appreciate it yeah this is gonna be so much fun we're be talking about the importance of decentralized governance in our world yeah which is very interesting because we've had what like 200 almost 50 years of this u.s. governance and it's been like pretty good the Constitution's good but it's centralized and now we have blockchain we have all this technology that helps us decentralize things well it's beyond even decentralization it's more the idea that when you look at any kind of theory and the theory in principle and the theory in practice are so far removed from themselves that they're actually creating a cliff of divide that divide is actually going to propagate through the minds of people that are practicing the philosophy because what we believe democracy is or what we're taught democracy is if we're even taught what democracy is and what democracy has become in many instances in practice when you shift the incentives toward you know that of capitalism instead of actually like the humanization of what is meant to be the collective good the good of the Commons then you're fragmenting what you're you're fragmenting belief and in fragmenting that belief what people are doing is inserting the idea that belief is not belief in the functionality of the system belief is not the belief in the principle of democracy believe his belief in the principle that you associate with your self-identity and in fracturing that principle of you know here's you know are the good of the system and then here's my is self-interested good what happens is we pre create partisan politics and that's we know why we have these Republicans and Democrats and why people say I hate all Democrats because I personally feel pro-gun or I feel Pro you know a pro-life or whatever or I feel anti it either of those things in Pro marijuana and we say that because I believe in this certain thing myself that must mean that I believe in this thing politically and eaten in that entire train of logic right all people are doing from the minute they start saying that until the second they finish it's just them literally sacrificing their agency and targeting other people instead of actually looking at a systems functionality and questioning whether that system is living up to its principle and that destroys the the destruction of the principle of the system in turn has been destroying the principles of our own humanity so you know Aristotle didn't say like democracy is it he wasn't like democracy is like that's my life mate democracy he said of the systems we know that exist democracy is the best it's the best of what we know right but what if the best of what you know is you know I've only in my life ever shopped in a very small local Walmart and there are no local farms or what if the best of what you know is that you know what if the best of what you know is essentially something that's bad for you something that's maybe filled with preservatives or chemicals that you don't know about I'm not trying to dog on Walmart here I'm just giving an example of the way that you know the the underlying mechanics behind the way that we've thought about production and consumption have driven us away from the good of what is human life what is the good for human life and what is the good for my life right so yeah I mean it's all of this all of this symbolism is coming to a head and what blockchain really represents in so many different ways is our ability to to recreate and to redefine that symbolism and to say are any of these Western systems all right we haven't always used these systems right like how do you think we managed our societies in like Sumerian times like these super advanced civilizations like the Aztec like the Maya the Egyptians right they all have pretty similar models but their connection was always based on something bigger than what they are and whenever you're only focusing on what you are sudden you feel like you're very big and everything else seems like it's either very small where the bigger picture doesn't connect with you because you're not imagining anything outside of what exists just in your own very narrow perception so yeah I think what blockchain represents is not you know the idea of its it can represent many ideas but it's a technology technology is used by humans humans generally respond to the incentives we create for them so if we create better incentives in our technology then we can see a shift in human behavior if we change human behavior then maybe we're one step closer to peace but the healing starts in here yes the healing totally starts within and the decentralization is going to cause a good amount of healing in our future you mentioned oh as you were going there you said that we have this new sort of conspicuous consumption capitalism that's kind of taking over this ego is getting pumped up we've lost kind of this sense of the cosmic perspective on to our civilization these things all in play are kind of causing what we're seeing and then this whole polarization of taking this thought and associating it with ourselves to the degree of which we will actually refused to even empathize with the other person's thought because we are so in our own bias this is it's starting to get a little bit what we're experiencing a good amount of flux right now when all of a sudden Connie can just come on to Twitter and just be like yo like make America great again and and everyone's like whoa how that happened so there's like a bunch of things happening in the social fabric that are kind of disruptive and I want to learn more about exactly how we can how we can fix this with decentralization and how you're working on it's been a year at culture now yeah and that's going and there's differences for people too you were telling me about this earlier for somebody that's coming on to the to your platform now it's on to this decentralized platform that it's different for somebody that's a refugee that just had their home taken away from them and versus someone that is living in San Francisco that wants to get their voting record on the blockchain of their identity on the blockchain so this is much different yeah so I mean one Kanye West is a performance artist Kanye West is a performance artist Kanye West is doing what every major media agency in the world is doing who wants control what he's doing is he's playing with reality at a meta level that's what Kanye is actually doing he's messing with everyone's sense of reality in a way that is so unexpected that he has control every it's he has the control because you can't control what is unexpected that's the only way actually that a lot of people can either you can have control in that way if you're a persona because then you're a bit more impervious to some of these like targeted grassroot insurgent attacks like we were talking about earlier and in doing that way you're actually you're you're taking the incentives at a micro level that people are using to exploit media information and persona and you're essentially saying he's essentially saying nope and he's taking on that at a macro level and he's flipping it on its head literally saying I care so little about what people think of me because that is how they control me I'm taking what Kanye is doing is he's actually rebelling against that mentality and saying I'm taking control of my own life I personally think that Kanye West and Kim Kardashian are our broad-scale media geniuses and watching even watching the growth I mean you just have to really take a moment and step back regardless of principle or any of these things what they've done from a meta perspective or the evolution of their persona is absolutely remarkable and not that not that it ever would be but shouldn't be understated they're the genius that they both because that shouldn't be understated because they really are they really are shifting what people perceive as reality and there very few people that have enough control over it to do that yes so it's a it is literally a trip and what they're realizing is that what's happening is like it's it's it's literally like realizing that everyone around you is on opioids and you're like sitting up here you're in like some kind of you know ayahuasca but are like you know you're in you're in this you know lucid you're in this full lucid state and once you're able to take that lucid perspective over reality you're able to take all of the people that are asleep and hopefully shift them into something greater so culture is actually a movement that I've been working on for and that's what he does like he's saying that rather than being a slave to the culture that exists around me I am literally taking this into my own hands and I am just tired and at any expense right I would do it not that I would ever do things the same way because I definitely wouldn't but it's yeah I mean it's powerful right it's powerful to have that level of control over your own life especially when you get that big yeah you know so it's all you know there's a lot of it the strategic and then there's some of it that's just real and that's also what makes it so interesting I've been working on culture for the last like actually five to seven years that's how long you've been working on yourself just under different names and it's but you've been aware of blockchain technology for that long yeah bloch means pretty much been my whole life in career I found blockchain technology when I was twenty years old so I was staying you know politics economics my actual degree was in advertising and propaganda theory mm-hmm I noticed I thought that was super interesting propaganda theory yeah which is what we're gonna talk about in a little bit also with media for sure yeah oh yeah and then within the framework of that propaganda theory I was also studying politics economics and philosophy I was basically just studying I was in college but what I was learning was I used colleges of resource so it's not like I was like oh I take these classes so I only read these books like I just go around and get syllabi for different classes and different reading lists and I would just talk to people I just talked to professors and I'd read stuff and I've had questions and I'd ask about those questions and I'd figure things out so the quality of your life Quadra questions yeah absolutely absolutely and so and it's also if you have resources at your big questions if you have researched by the way talking about hacking a simulation we can definitely get into that mm-hmm well even globalization and wealth inequality and AGI and bio warfare and how do we maximize human potential all these freaking questions that all these different diverse leaders in their different fields let's test your perspectives about them let's get these thoughts to the world let's inspire more people around the world to have these conversations because what are we going to do in the future how are we gonna have these children be birthed in the world so yeah what the importance of this deep question and the importance of blockchain technology to where are we going yeah and yeah I mean I think these are all questions that can't be answered and they can be answered individually from our perspectives but the future is determined by all of us yes you know and so yeah some have more power and control like we were just talking about with Connie and Kim well it depends on how what is the level of I don't want to say cosmic awareness but it's really like how broad and how high how meta is your perspective like how meta can you get in terms of the way that you perceive things because once you're able to take who you are it's self transcendence and remove it from the equation you learn a lot more about what's actually happening because you're not trying to process things through the continual framework of you you're removing you from the equation and in removing the idea of your own self identity to kind of riff in the opposite direction of what I just said when you're actually removing the idea of your relationship to yourself and your ego from an equation in a way that allows you to transcend what would be your normal perception you're able to take in reality as it is it's like the glass isn't half-empty it's not half full technically the glass is always full because half of its filled with air but you're literally looking at the glass as interest is it is a glass there is water in that glass like this is the state of reality and in understanding that state of reality you have more power to create a state change you have more power to shift that because you're not perceiving things through the framework of a perspective your understanding that the sum of what I am in my existence in my perspective is an illusion of memory that I have built over the course of my life that I have lived and imagined because it's every time we try and remember something you know where our memory really exists as dreams because every dream that we have if we're exploring within our own consciousness is created of the framework of the memories that we have stored in our physical bodies otherwise all we would see is energy other if we were just using our dream body and our spirit body to traverse across the world in the universe all we would see is just the color of energy right in these interactions and like these frames or these vignettes but because we're living in an environment where we actually have a connection to the physical world that's the only place memory is ever real other than that it's the idea of your existing in a period where your imagined memory is based on what you perceive is true to you and what you perceive is true to you could be based on something unprocessed you could be perceiving truth based on an unprocessed drama and then continuing to create that truth because you still haven't connected with the Godin you you know so it's really important the foundation of culture is actually based on the idea that we as a society have to incentivize self transcendence yeah as a philosophy yeah if we're not going to have peace inside of ourselves right at the top yeah we can't have peace anywhere else well I think the shape is changing right and that's the the other thing that if we talk about like shapes open people's self transcendence they don't even have their base physiological needs met right that's got out we'd be this easily have you been to India I mean they say in India there's a lot of pain and very little suffering because they're men like my friend told me this story said I was walking down the streets in India he was doing this project for social good and he says I see this man he's like Harriet like Braille thin like ribs everywhere just you know big old beard and he's got a child with Kennedy's missing teeth and it had just rained and they're laying in a puddle and they're and they're loving each other and they're rolling around in this water because it had rained and that meant that they could have a shower they could have a bath and they were joyous mm-hmm right and that's because they have reached that place of self transcendence because the spiritual culture there is very very very strong so you can reach that place no matter how much you have you can come up from you can have with them when they have an issue with their health it might be more difficult for them to get an issue with their health or maybe his child's issue with his health you could lose a child earlier due to improper attendant tending of their health and also to it's very good to be spiritually connected enough to be able to role but in the puddle so this is so it's interesting that you bring it up this I totally agree with you but I also want to see there be some sort of the base as well yeah yeah and I think that that's going to be generated using blockchain as a tool once information can be quantified we will understand that it is value once we can quantify all forms of value we can actually create wealth see time so so there's last about five years though of going through this process of figuring this technology out and trying to bring it to our world so the technology came to me really early it wasn't about figuring it out it was finding it and feeling like the questions had been answered mm-hmm because I was looking at the global economy going we've been printing more death and we have wealth for like 50 or more years Venezuela is like 15th on the cia's and one data for money supply and they can't even stock that grocery stores with food this is not it's not even that it's not sustainable it's that the illusion has gone so far that the fracture in reality something is gonna happen mm-hmm you know and we had to have there's got to be there has got to be something else like there's got to be an answer and watching I believe in so many ways is that answer so when we think about it talk about ideas like the infinite you're like universal health care things like that so if you think about DNA like DNA is a storage molecule mm-hmm and you have like processing elements within your body like the amount of transactions my body is making since we've been sitting here is like you know in in the in the billions trillions however many transactions my body's been making since we've literally just been sitting down for this interview and if we're able to actually look at our body as a source of information right what is because what is blotching actually like what is Bitcoin it's just ASIC chips that are mining and solving super complex math problems that increase it exponential rates and once they're able to find the answers to those problems it's actually generating its therapy or know they're getting Bitcoin for having solved that problem as a computer you've got a decentralized digital ledger yeah it's a it's a decentralized digital ledger and in being a decentralized digital ledger its quantifying solutions to information problems our body is literally just information so let's say that if our body is solving if we are solving problems in our body or we're using our body and the information in our body to solve health problems it's the idea that what if you had that with the people who have really rare diseases are actually really valuable because if we can figure out if we can use or cross-reference their own biological data with the other basic biological database of other people we might be able to find a solution and a cure we might be able to eliminate within within the next century we may be able to eliminate disease mm-hmm right so just the way the information is reacting within our biology if we could at least log that on the ledger and then be able to analyze the trigger of the pathology so many people have been on the show talking about biotech and we love that those conversations there's so many other applications of putting things on the digital ledger we're talking about voting earlier identity property marriage there's so many things that can go on there and there's so many cases of people losing things that are theirs due to there not being a paper trail of it being theirs and who's in charge of the paper trail it's a scent and when it's a centralized paper trail all of a sudden it can disappear with a little bit of lobbying a little bit of politics any of that and that's that's that's unhealthy for someone's yeah you know it's a serious serious transition that we're in okay so now it's been a couple years of analyzing this and embodying it as your you know truth of how you see the world and how you want to solve a lot of the fractures that we're experiencing I kind of want to talk about the fractures a little bit more because we're talking you talk about solutions in the fractures as we go but yeah this this fracture of the media that's going on and it's nice because we're both classify ourselves as empaths you went to 30 straight days of meditation Asia I went to 310 days of meditation it's been one of the most profound experiences of my life and it's helped me really tune into another person's being that there's a fullest being and my own fullest being and so in doing that I have learned that when I see people be so polarized I try and stay as calm and quantum as as possible try to stay open-minded trying to stay loving and caring ask really good questions and so what we've seen is we were talking abouts a little bit earlier but this whole shift in people manipulating the fabric of the media in order to gain their own power agency their own agency agency it's actually and that's the the scarier thing the scarier thing is that we have some people manipulating the media at the the mere attempt to just gain their agency because we've created a world where you have to be a certain way to be successful or to be a man or it's be a woman and all of that is utter BS it is absolute and utter BS you don't have to be anyone else's man but your own man you don't have to be anyone else's woman but your own woman and anyone who tells you differently they're afraid don't buy into it people will try to sell you fear everywhere you go it's not worth it it's not worth it it's not worth it to make that kind of a deal just let it go just literally let it go yeah I mean the fractures are in some ways I believe that it is our duty and responsibility to heal these structures and that's another core thesis reciprocity and restoration are two of the Cora thesis is underneath the technology that that we're working on and it's the idea that if you look at the governance and the boxing in space right now Bitcoin forked because of a social fracture because of a social political fracture and also because of grassroots psychological insurgency because we had paid trolls come in to the reddit community as early as 2013 Manning 5200 reddit accounts when the community was small and going in to empower essentially the voices of trolls and in doing that start to fragment the community from within itself it's pervasive it happened everywhere because it was a study of reddit is do they know yeah they're I don't know I haven't called Alex or something but it is their claim that 5,200 you know this was not someone from reddit I know yeah but but reddit analyzed the bots accounts this is no no no no no no this was so this was a report there's the best media publication that ever existed in the Bitcoin and blockchain world was a publication called coin fire they were real journalists and that's why they got attacked they actually had someone tried like DDoS like they were just trying to shut them down it was coin fire was the most authentic high integrity publication that existed in our industry and the site got shut down but the reporters are still out there well and they had someone they contacted me about this story because I you know co-founded and was the CEO of coin Telegraph and they therefore the first operational CEO ever and they called me and they essentially said you know like we need help we need help and I'm like what's going on and they said you know we're being attacked right now because we're we're getting this information and we're releasing this story and I was like alright we'll tell me more and the story that came out was the most it was one of the most remarkable things they had ever seen or read it was just someone who felt guilty it was literally and they had been known for being the most high integrity journalistic publication in the industry and someone essentially just contacted them and said I will give you the logins and the passwords to all of these accounts and they gave them it was they gave them the passwords and logins to 50 different accounts they've been some of them purchased some had been operational for eight years yeah they had all been posting so there were posts it looks like this was a real person because at one point in time they actually had been right and so you don't know like it looks like oh this person's interested in like they have automated posts in life makes it more difficult to tell if they're a bot or a human they were but that's the thing is that these aren't BOTS they were operated by humans these 5200 no these are not robots they're networks of psychological insurgency that are built by real people that are Manning fifty to a hundred accounts on reddit and have purchased accounts from other real people men women different backgrounds different interests and are maintaining a normal posting schedule there and then using that same voice to fragment the Bitcoin community this happens to Reddit this happens through Twitter this happens through Facebook the number of people that are like it's you know that if you just accept every person who oh you yeah well it so many pictures of freaking women in bikinis trying to add men right now it's ridiculous and I'm sure the opposite is true for women getting tons of men as well for in men these profiles you click them open they're from some random City they might have a mutual friend or two of yours because they've already accepted the request but they're trying to just mine your information yeah and manipulate you through their social postings that say things like oh this certain news is being propagated and then you click it open it's some random site that has no actual authentication and all of a sudden that's what we're seeing more and more of so who's doing this who's doing this who's behind this why are they trying to manipulate the fabric yeah what's their incentive what do you mean why are they trying to manipulate the fabric because it is the most powerful form of what people are trying to control or the actions of other people I mean this is actually warmer it is in because the the war that they're waging is in your mind yeah there's no more powerful form of violence than violence that you are responsible for that's that's the ultimate form of an accountability especially when you don't know that it's happening to you that's even worse for those who are causing the violence it allows them to remove or revoke any kind of accountability that they have in the situation you go through seven other people to hurt another person and the way that that person actually gets hurt is that they hurt themselves or they hurt someone else most people who do that aren't even aware they're not even aware that they're becoming violent that they're either going on these you know they're going on this like whole train or they're like wanting to you know they're spewing hate speech or they're doing whatever where they feel like they they hate this other person and they want to fragment the community where they feel like they're at odds with someone and this person is their enemy and that's by design it's not actually because this person is your enemy it's by design it's because you're being manipulated by everything that you don't see and understand but it's getting to you because they know how to get to you that's why you can't even read don't even read it's don't don't even engage I don't I don't I barely use any of that stuff yeah yeah and if I do I like don't it's just really don't even engage with it no I mean I don't for the benefits of vocalizing your perspectives to the world which actually helps a lot to put good content at the sphere a lot of times I hear people say that I'm not using social media anymore because it's just too much of that nonsense but then I also say that you are a brilliant person that has a lot of wisdom to communicate to the world if you just took those little bits wisdom that come to your mind and post them across Facebook Twitter Instagram LinkedIn these major platforms and just posted it there and then just let other people read it and see it they would be like wait there's actually good content on here too and then we could over overturn that as well I want it I want to ask about how what you're building is restoring that media fabric and this and not enabling the fracturing to happen so easily well I'm not actually building so I can tell you how it should be done it's a platform that I created you know it's it's like I can tell you how it should be done I actually have a few talks that that mention essentially here's the solution to this Jesus but that's not what I'm working on because I'm working on something from a different perspective and a different angle it's just about being aware that these are the real problems and this is these these are the real political issues that are affecting citizens as well the holy their baby they're way bigger and broader issues than that but these are the ones that are at least in our control what were your talks that you give how do you get the awareness in though just from that point before we go to what you're building what how do you wear nurse and other people how do you get the awareness in so that people maybe stay skeptical or stay super analytical don't get driven by those emotional signals that come through the you need to ensure self transcendence I mean it self transcendence you have to be so aware of not only it's not like what you are and what you are not you just have to be so aware of our relationship to existence from a cosmological standpoint that you're able to take a God's eye view on some of this stuff because that's the only way you're gonna that's the only way you're gonna make it through yeah if you start looking at things super myopically and you start focusing on the trauma you start focusing on the pain you start focusing on the anger you start focusing on the sadness you're gonna it's it's just gonna keep existing because you're focusing on it if you focus on the pain the pain will continue to exist if you focus on the light if you look at things that's grinning I'm not saying it's not like I'm perfect and it's not like I'm like I always have this active and I'm like unaffected by everything like it's not that's not the case I'm the person and I just try to maintain it's in the past like I've you know I've seen a lot of things like that and I hear you with the self-transcendent perspective yeah I just have to keep checking yourself yeah it's it's a recently posted about the importance of the mirror the importance of really looking in the mirror and focusing on self growth and being very careful and being like I actually don't like that and then working on it and being okay with other people critiquing and being really driven to to work on oneself okay so how about what you're working on with Chris Allen so tell us a little bit about this this is really interesting so web of trust is essentially and so the company my company is called culture and the foundation of the work that we're building is essentially universal access to legal contract rights outside of one particular jurisdiction and a shift in our relationship to identity as something that is stewarded by a community instead of 'no psyche owns as a biometric or something like this so web of trust is an open source standards running underneath culture and culture is essentially the ability for you to register your identity on web with trust you can register it on like civic or Junio order through Facebook and social media or whatever right and you can pick and choose which identity if not multiple identities you want to use to interact with the world and then you essentially have access to all of these different blockchain applications and landscapes so I can have multiple identities this is and this is a philosophical question that we can get into right whoa so with with web of trust it's essentially the idea that you're now we can get really into that conversation because that's a philosophical debate I have to submit a DNA sample per personality it might get that extremely well and in a digital world might be the only place where you can have an anonymous identity let's hope it doesn't but it's it's already but then but then how would really if I could take five different personas and identify them through through a platform then we're already experiencing a little bit of fragmentation of sorts because whatever the four ones that aren't this good standing one could do whatever they want with the plow so what are you quick ly though on the philosophy behind that would our yeah so I mean and this is a tricky and complex question because there's the idea that you should only have one identity like that's basically Facebook's stance it's like you should only have one identity I thought about this last night like I got into a deep sometimes I get I just write and I get into like this deep conversation with myself about our relationship to identity but it's the idea really in our system that your identity is stewarded by your community and your identity is not only relative to your identity but what's really important about your identity when you're participating in different communities and cultures is your decision-making power so you might have a bunch of identities and then of those identities may have decision-making power in any of the cultures of the tribes or the communities that you interact with so should you have I mean this is not here's the thing like it I don't I don't know if that something I feel should be just like there are certain people like activists so for example so to give you an example of where this would be important interest so if I'm living in Uganda and I am a you know let's say I'm living in Uganda and I'm gay and I want to marry my wife because I love her and there was a period of time where you got I was trying to pass a bill fueled by the way by Western fundamentalists who came to Uganda like super like hard-line Christian and they essentially hardly I don't want to say Christian activists but I think that's probably how they would think of themselves they came to Uganda fuel to hate movement and you gotta try to have passed they kill the gays bill and so they now have an anti homosexuality law where essentially if you you it used to be the death penalty and now it's literally life in prison it's that bad so if I'm living in Uganda and I want to get married anonymously and have my community verify it maybe gain access to some services or some rights or some anything some whatever you know collaborative governance marketplace can provide for me then I actually can't I I'm putting my life at risk okay if I have a public identity and I'm saying that because the world has not reached the level that you're at the rest of the world has not caught up with what you've reached okay you got it maybe either give them some time or like figure you have to essentially figure out a way to there are people are already living is to life so so there's a good way to leverage five fake personas that you control to try and increase the amount of conversation in Uganda around Pro gay marriage no that's not what I'm saying and it's also the idea that if you have an anonymous identity and that anonymous identity isn't having any kind of interaction you can be banned so like if let's say a communities organize thank you legally gay married with an anonymous identity yes when I'm when you use your anonymous identity you're not necessarily using an anonymous identity frequently to interact with the world but you'd use your anonymous identity to register different contracts anonymously that you and your like social network can verify or the you and your partner can verify so you can have legal access to a system of contract law that exists outside of the bounds of a jurisdiction that may try to oppress you for owning your rights right so there's one really important yeah right there that's the highlight when do that's the reason why when a jurisdiction outside of use trying to oppress you in some way you then have the ability to privately put something on the digital ledger securely over time and and that and then you're on publicly you can do go to the grocery store etc because that's not oppressive of sorts yeah that's but can you continue to keep like if you're using like these identities first of all like they're all stored in one place right and you can have one identity like your civic identity as a public identity where you need to follow KYC naml laws and you need a passport you might have another identity like through web of trust where you're a refugee but it's the idea that all of these things can be transparent and linked and you can see when someone is using an identity that's not a transparent identity so you might immediately see like hmm okay well this person who's trying to interact with me I don't know them and they're just using an anonymous identity so if I'm a journalist I might say this might be a tip right from an anonymous whistleblower but if I'm just a person and I'm interacting with another person and they come to me directly just anonymously I can say no like or maybe I'll let like one message through but I can say like no like I don't really want this anonymous person with no reputation or no identity to be able to contact me like unless they are you know doing this or this or this so the way that that works is essentially if you have an anonymous identity and you want to connect with someone you need a party of trust so the way that this is outlined even in the white paper for Amira that's written for the web of trust foundation is that it's the idea that Amira is an activist from Syria who was a child bride that escapes her abusive husband who has a position in Syria and regime she moved to Boston she has a job at a bank that's a normal job but she wants to give back to the world and so in wanting to give back to the world she engages in the situation where she sees this guy on TV and she's like wow he builds like he's building this app that's gonna shelter women that have been physically abused to really want to contribute but she can't contribute thank you she can't contribute with her own identity because she doesn't want to be a rich doesn't wanna be found by the regime she doesn't want to be any of these things only she contributes with an anonymous identity called better world hacker 23 but how is he even worked at the bank without showcasing her identity she's Social Security number she's these things production I mean this price I mean they can be it can be different kinds of things and you can also I mean the assumption in this case is that they would be looking for her and then and with this kind of heritage or background it would be someone that would yeah so okay so this is about protecting one's own health as well from for having this independent agency to move away from oppression somewhere else and then not be under the attack of that regime but the important element of this is that if she's using I'm not talking about that identity the identity that I'm talking about for her that she use our system for is the anonymous that she would use to essentially say I don't want to use my public identity because I feel I could be at risk so the only the way that she connects with him like she could reach out to him using her anonymous identity but probably have like low latency so she finds a mutual friend who knows him that knows that knows the guy who's running a non-profit and the mutual friend essentially says ouch for her there would be a lot of connections and say yeah it might be right I can vouch for her and say it's gonna be complete the system is trail of vouches for the person you can you can have a trailer like the six degrees of separation or connection and you can say well I trust this degree at this level or this person at this level so you can have this person essentially say Charlene introduces her to this guy Bob and she says I can vouch for betterworld hacker 23 and say that better world hacker 23 is like an excellent programmer and so he says okay well let's engage in this agreement and I'll you know for the first month show me that you're a good coder contribute work to this project for free then they create an agreement then once he says you're a great coder she gets to continue to contribute to the work because he says okay she's right you are a great coder and then what happens is he starts building up her reputation for her anonymous identity okay so it's not like anonymous identities exist in a way right now what's happening is that we have anonymous identities that are able to proliferate at this regard because there's very little accountability but if you place an anonymous identity in the hands of a community that's stewarding it yeah then the model shifts because you're actually saying my identity is not just my identity my identity is the way I exist subjectively it's also the way I exist objectively my identity is the communities of reference that I associate with and my identity is also the skills I have to offer the world so you start to get this portrait of who a person is that's beyond just one the sum of one username or handle you're actually saying I exist as a process of the way in which I relate to the world around me and in that way once you're able to gain perspective on that we're moving people closer to the idea of what it means to take this kind of God's eye view Insull transcend so it's it's the idea that we really once you change the model to community stewardship a person who is seen or perceived it's being anonymous you and you might say you might feel comfortable talking to anonymous people oh you might probably and you might say yeah sure like I don't need an anonymous profile as well I have things that I'd like to contribute outside of the the social fabric that I think would be very very inspiring that other people should hear but that I do choose not to right now as much of an open book that we are here there are many things that we just cannot say on the program that we would like to say is that right yeah I've got nothing died no I don't care I don't need to be anonymous interesting so then there's people that don't care at all about anonymity and then a lot of most people most people don't at all those people want most most people have known me my god I would publish the most crazy medium post about civilization design if I could just be totally anonymous topic I mean I'll probably say my anonymous friend asked me to be like I wouldn't I would never have an anonymous identity because I just don't I'm like so full I would never have for me I don't really have a need like I'm transparent like I hang out with my I say this is like a joke because my I'll give my friends passwords to my stuff and I'm just like here you go I'm like here they're like oh do you like want to unlock your phone and I'm like there you go and they're like people are kind of taken aback and I'm like listen I don't care if you I don't really have anything I hide I don't care if you read my emails just as long as I'm consenting as long as I'm consenting to you doing yeah that's one thing but if I'm not giving you the consent then there's a problem and that's really what the our relationship to anonymous identities is gonna be based on consent and it's gonna be based on community stewardship so you have to consent like you can say as a person through this identity like I consent to receive messages from any kind of identity any anonymous identity should I consent to allow anonymous people into our community but it's that layer of consent and you're starting with that layer you're setting the balance first and you're setting the boundary so if you're like you know I'm I want people in my community if you can't be who if you can't show your real identity or you can't have one who's in our immediate circle vouch for your identity then that's an access point that we're gonna put over here and you can be a part of those communities that have these different standards but if you want access to our community are we have these requirements for access it's kind of like you know being an accredited investor so let's unpack the example again because I think it's really important to do so so we have a woman that may have fled an oppressive regime that now works in within the United States with a public identity just working normally just in case anything happens but she finds something that is very inspirational but that could get her in trouble so she finds a private identity and anonymous identity and starts working with that organization through a connection network that enables them to say okay we trust we trust we trust okay sure start coding okay coatings good enough maybe she starts getting paid by them she starts contributing to them that's good stuff so that's an example of an anonymous use so there probably will be uses of this anonymously and this profile will get built up and so that's really good so that's is that would you say that's your primary case example of culture of the importance of what you're building so I'd say that's the importance of of web of trust web of trust is free web of trust will always be free it is an open source standard for people to own their rights sovereignly outside of the bounds you can use this for refugees of a particular jurisdiction so if a refugee wants to gain right now essentially the the process for immigration is a lottery citizenships basically a lottery you sometimes money helps yeah money helps with pretty much everything and but if you're a refugee and you don't have any of that it's basically a lottery whether or not you'll even get chosen so what we're actually doing is saying listen we're creating this open-source research and development institution and this is helping everyone make more effective decisions because you can actually see if you're letting a person if you're saying well I want to let this person into my community or into my like you know property or my country or whatever may be a country that exists maybe a country that you create then you're able to say okay well I can actively see this person as a part of these communities so we share some common ground over here and there's I can also see that this person has these skills so interestingly ties into Trump saying that he wants the best refugees are the best immigrants and not just whoever the hell wants to come in well the immigration process is absolutely if it's horrible across the board this is why you have people going into new nations and like I I went into Denmark I think about a year ago and I was like what because I hadn't been back in like a couple years and I went there a year ago and I was like oh my gosh I was like I called one of my friends and I said what's the deal what I'm like what's going on I was like I've never in my life seen a homeless person in Denmark oh wow I've never seen a homeless person in Denmark and she said you're not gonna like the answer and I was like I don't know I was like well you got it I think you gotta tell me why what is it and she said they're refugees they're refugees and it was just so I'd never had someone approach me on the street and ask me for money in Denmark just never and so it's also a process where even these nations that have like these incredible you know programs in social democracies or things like this and essentially like the Roman flag is like unity through division it's like this big cross and then when you look at all of the scandic nations they're all basically the Roman Empire leaning to the left and then Jesus is like the Roman Empire at the pinnacle of power meaning one is greater than the other I mean all symbolism is literally everywhere and so yeah and so it's one of these situations where if they actually were able to understand listen okay here's this refugee and they have skills as a carpenter they speak English they have effective skills as a teacher they've been teaching people in refugee camps we have these forty people they grew up with who can verify that they had this job where they did this thing then they're actually able to see okay not only or can we like admit you but let me like actively place you into a job yeah let me like get you a place to stay with people who you share a common community with that are willing to open up their house and then let me help put you in a place where you're gonna actually be able to meaningfully contribute to society in a way that you're skilled or build your skills yeah and so connections so important yeah it's huge yeah because you know we a lot of people are coming into these environments where it's like imagine if you're new in a place and you don't even speak the language and you just like lost half your family and you saw your house get bombed and you come into a new country and you're like you don't even understand that you have to pay to write you know do I pay to ride the bus so guys you not been on a bus I don't know what this language means and you're alone and it's like you're any any person you when you go into a grocery store you might have taken in everyone you look at you're like no one here understands me everyone is staring at me I feel like I'm being ostracized you're just walking down the street celebrating my culture and I said I actually proposed the solution at a broad scale because people were talking about this and we were all concerned and I said have you ever like considered that maybe we should just throw a giant party and everyone was like this was in like a government office everyone just look to be in there like go on and so I said you know have you ever hung out with someone where you're like you've got this totally different background or this different experience and the way that you bond is that you just share something social and meaningful together yeah like when I went to college a drink or an event or but beyond is is celebrating someone's culture like when I went to college we celebrated Holi it was like everyone's favorite day of the year like you see all of these like Western kids that have never been to India and they have all these like they're like got the typical College photo of them like covered in the Holi paint dust right from the celebration of spring and in that way you feel like this you because you've had an experience with that heritage you feel connected to it yeah and so I said have you guys thought about going through and actually taking the holidays or the celebrations from this culture and just celebrating them throughout the city organize a big party because then people are gonna have empathy because they're basically like oh I've I've not only broken bread with this person but I've broken bread with their tradition yeah yeah and it's beautiful it's like you know you where you will show you what Christmas is like – right so that's the the foundation of this is really about humanizing our relationship to each other and placing ownership more as a student – a stewardship role taking the attitude of developed nations and actually uplifting what's meaningful about First Nations about indigenous nations right because if we took more time to steward our planet and the people that were in it I think we'd all be a lot happier healthier and way more connected adding someone as a friend on Facebook doesn't mean you are connected means you're linked yeah I liked how you said that's not just about breaking bread but it's also about breaking into their culture than breaking into yours and doing something to ensure that across the planet we always think that is it really gonna take a an alien race identifying one outside of Earth to finally realize that we're all one here I hope it doesn't take that long until we really figure out how to work together and help each other so so alright let's cover the examples of let's do this quick because I want to get to a couple quick questions before the end let's get to the examples of the influence that culture is having in in identity we did we did identity with anonymity and non anonymity and then how about voting property all this other kind of stuff what yeah so are these the other major uses property marriage contracts education certificates basically anything that you can register is a universal registration system the original function of the nation-state was essentially just that like I was basically the function of jurisdiction it was a way to organize things because we had tribal kings who essentially organized things with their memory so you remember what I said about memory earlier it's like the tribal Kings memory isn't perfect or it's not it was paper Ledger's sometimes yeah I mean then it's like oh well and then it moved into kings and queens where it's like Oh everything's organized because I own it oh so we don't even have to worry about that and then you made it into and then we make it into nations which nations essentially say well we're trying to give people different forms they still have kings and queens basically like you know the Kennedys but it's or like regimes is used in different contexts but it's a regime and yeah it's it's the idea that you're giving everyone access at least to buy a house or to do a thing and you're giving them a kind of ownership over their registration which is controlled ownership so what we build is Universal registration where we're all I'm also wearing it's my necklace as well you are the logo yes nice you got one of those I'll get you something that's cool yeah we should hang one up in here yeah let's do it but it's also the idea that you're you're now having the universal registration we're putting jurisdiction into the hands of every person on the planet as an individual and the way in which we look at ownership isn't just the idea because it's like if you just register a contract on the blockchain does that mean anything like no but when doesn't mean something when people are organized that's when it means something whether for bad like I was talking about earlier with those psychological insurgency networks are for good to give people access to their rights and ownership over their rights we can use that evil for good we can use that evil forget that's part of the foundation of the system that we're designing and so yeah that's it's it's that's what's core to culture and then on top of culture is a really dynamic ecosystem for new forms of access economy and community because the future of government is not government the future of government is culture yay nice nice so it's good good all right now we've touched on at least an okay amount of what we've needed to touch on about your background and about what you're building into the world and importance of it so how about a little bit of simulation questions so let's ask you about I'm interested to hear your thoughts on this one we're approaching an age of massive information technology across biotech and crypto and space and AI and robotics there's so much technology and it's kind of exacerbating the wealth inequality and we're now getting close to about eight people have as much wealth as four billion what do you think is going to happen with that gap of wealth and equality how do we help that and then also what's going on across the world with these technologies with the China Russia us equation yeah unpack that a little for us with your thoughts yeah so I mean there's a philosophical way that we could talk about ideologically how this could work and then there's the reality of the idea that all of these countries might try and homogenize and control their own things so okay which one do you lean more in the direction of it depends on how organized people are frankly and it depends on how much we like to play together rather than separately yes exactly united we stand legitimate I hope so on earth I hope I hope so yeah for sure I hope so so addressing the idea of this kind of like emergent well I mean the this is by design as well you know we have a third world country pretty much in the United States mm-hmm drive through San Francisco if you'd like to question whether or not that's true yes sixth and market just drive through I have seen through maybe like I could I could take you to at least five to seven side streets that are literally probably actually more than that that are literally just homeless villages yeah they are started making is that of like like like shanty structures fancy structures outside of like wood just basically wood tents or things like that like propped up with sticks and there's there's a hole there's hold there's 10th row there's Hazzard Needle depositories San Francisco spent 30 million dollars this year cleaning up needles and feces from the street yeah and then you have Rincon Hill which is right over there by the Bay Bridge where a condo costs 25 million dollars rent for a one-bedroom apartment is five thousand dollars if you factor in what the salary is for most Americans and how much it costs to live in San Francisco you you wouldn't be able to eat living here so yeah I mean it's a obviously a very serious problem and I think the way that we solve these issues is by giving people access and I think that what's gonna happen is all of this information and like people talk about the foundation for ubi and the foundation for ubi is actually the quantification of information and the individuals ability to take ownership over their own data because your data is a resource like I was talking earlier with your body whether the data that you generate is content whether the data that you generate is your biological information maybe you have a very unique eye color maybe you have a very unique genetic patterning where whether the information that you generate is measuring the quality of the air in your area maybe the information that you generate is living in Africa and you're using your cell phone to take a vr like essentially using your cell phone to scan the world around you in a way that runs it through a program that can immediately translate it in real-time hopefully into a virtual landscape so you're essentially creating the empathy machine by just showing people this is what it's like in rural Sierra Leone and maybe that's a form of you're contributing meaningfully to society or to a project so the way I think this will play out and this is really good for your data yeah for anything we've been talking about ubi being the data being the source data you generate being a source for ubi as long as people actually pay you hopefully hopefully we get well the systems will be designed that way and if they're not designed that way then if someone said you could get paid for this or not get paid for this you would take the option that said I would like to be paid for it it's really that actually simple especially when the information is stored on an ax blockchain in a way that can make the information anonymous just just as information right the only people who would have access to the information would be intelligences you can have a network of decentralized artificial intelligences that are running on top of this network and they're essentially looking at the information as our relationship not to our subjective identity but as informations relationship to other information yeah and so if you needed subjective help you could have a personal AI that is specifically for you all of these AI should be decentralized consciousnesses we don't actually do no damn daily from synapse I know she's definitely yeah but we don't fear AI we fear the centralization of power so if all of these things are decentralized they're solving problems together rather than saying like all AI is owned by one thing that's what we fear because absolute power will be absolutely abused absolute power destroys absolutely and so if you have a personal AI it can know who you are and then all of these other AIS can be invisible processing information and mining meaning out of that whenever AI is just like whenever an ASIC ship solves a math problem and that math problem generates an answer and that answer generates meaning in the meaning generates Bitcoin where essentially we're changing the process of we're going from like I said its value and information into meaning through meaning and wealth wealth and meaning right so whenever we're able actually generate meaning from that information then we can have the distribution of wealth and we're all generating meaning all of the time in pretty much every moment and you have access control over how much of your data that you want to give out and then there's these benevolent AIS that are running to figure out what is the meaning coming from the data okay so this is potentially a solution to the wealth inequalities people actually getting paid for their data they're contributing whether it be your biometrics or whether it be taking that VR video within yeah within a specific place in the world or any kind of generating content like what we're doing right now like attention yeah I am every every variable that exists in the world time our relationship to the way we move through space perception attention meaning emotion reaction our emotions our information the way that I react to us if you say something to me and I react in a certain way that's actually meaningful information yeah if you react calmly if you react calmly versus if you react agitatedly yes that's very important information especially for when they test astronauts for the International Space Station cool or even growing from that what might actually be valuable is that one time someone says something you and you react in a certain way and then another time someone says something to you and you respond differently and your reaction to the situation shows that you've grown so all of these things like the idea is like also that the amount of information we're processing so constantly people think that information is like what is seen like you put a blog post out like that's doing something like that information is what's unseen as well that's really well said yeah yeah because the the exactly your reaction if you've grown as a human through your reactions that's that's or if we're doing some natural language processing on your work and we're seeing that you're writing about things that are maybe a little bit more higher level you've been reading you've been learning oh you get a little more money for your data good job the invisible information economy will generate infinite well mm-hmm I like that all right let's let's jump you into do you think we're alone in the cosmos I don't know what it means to be alone I think that all forms of consciousness are connected I think the cosmos oh so the question is interesting for me because the cosmos are a consciousness so the very relationship of the language in that question to its answer are at odds because are we alone in the cosmos like the cosmos our life there a consciousness themselves just like Earth is a conscious are there advanced civilizations roaming the cosmos the Kosmos are in an advanced civilization in and of themselves the cosmos there are higher are there more advanced civilizations than ours roaming the cosmos it's it's the same relationship the relationship we have to the broader higher consciousness of the cosmos is basically the relationship we have to earth it's like we're right in the middle of these two four and they're both pretty benevolent right and so if you look at earth it's like if you there's an experiment from Harvard it's like one of my favorite things to reference in terms of people saying I've had people go like Earth is a consciousness like Doug sounds really and I'm like the if you speak to plants differently mmm they will grow differently you play different music if you look at a plan you like I hate you plant and you look at a plant you're like I'm they respond yeah the earth is a living breathing organism that actually created human life but from space you can literally see the ice caps melting and they're sure making snow and melting snow it looks like breath yeah even though Earth created us she's not the full source of life we are more of the cosmos than we are of apes we as a human race were more aware of the cosmos than we are apes yes yeah okay sure but it also seems as though we're all of that at the same time though but I wrote a haiku a while ago and it's the tides of life are a cycling progression meant to merge man and God yeah that's good I like that haiku that's a really good one yeah so I think that what we're experiencing as a consciousness is we're essentially just spiraling upward and outward and like art here's what's happening like our consciousness was here is like this little dot and our consciousness is going like this and then it's just continuing to expand until we reach a point of expansion that can compare to the cosmos so it's a big galaxy forming over – yeah and then one system all of our consciousness reaches that it's like we but we are we're continuing to go through that cycle at a micro scale and then there's also that cycle happening at a macro level it's the same relationship that we have to the Hindu perception of time we talked about the Hindu perception of time is categorized into four yugas this is also related to Mayan astrology and Mayan astrology having the calendar that says the world can end in 2012 they didn't actually mean the world is gonna end what they meant is that that era of time is coming to an end between 2012 and 2018 right it's the end of the Kali Yuga which is what I call the Golden Calf age it's like materialism degradation like false idol worship we just finished the Kali Yuga and we're entering into the South Sioux Yuga which is the Golden Age where the gods and goddesses reign and these periods of time are actually relative to Earth's relationship not only on its own like wobbly axes kind of thing the definition of a wobbly axis but not only Earth's definition to its own rotation but Earth's definition of its rotation closer to and further away from the center of conscious energy in the universe so we're moving back toward that center of conscious energy in the universe which is what gives our own humanity I really shouldn't ship to what I call like Second Sight or even like sacred geometry if you look at like the pyramids the the you know sacred sites and in Mexico and in Cusco and there when China and an Egypt like if you look at Giza and you take the face of an Egyptian statue and cut it in half and then you flip one side of the face and overlay it I mean it's literally and then you overlay that with the original image it's literally perfectly symmetrical we were able to do this because our consciousness was in a higher state and then all of a sudden it's like what happened is we started taking all this information that we experienced right like we started taking the experience of higher consciousness and instead of experiencing it what happened is people try to start owning it they started to grasp it right and they started to try and use this to control because we were no longer in the connection in it that high point energy with the universe we were moving away from it and when people start when we start to move away from the central to the center of conscious energy in the universe what happens is we start to essentially crush our own minds into into this kind of like it's like we're here and then we expand then we expand outward and then we're contracting and then we're expanding but we're going through that process over and over again in one broader spectrum that is a continual expansion of consciousness until the metter meta perspective of what is like our quantum relationship to consciousness reaches again the same point that our initial consciousness experiences every like series of four Yuga cycles that we go through I like how you describe the vicissitudes of consciousness because I don't think the ups and downs of consciousness are described at a meta some civilizational level most of the time they're described at a individual level so it's good to see and feel them really contracting and expanding contracting because I we do discuss quite a bit on the show the previous tribes of humanity that have been very conscious and so why are we here now with yes ubiquity in food and water in many cases but also the proliferation of the media culture yeah okay do you think we're in a computer simulation it's not a computer simulation the simulation is our relationship to your own consciousness it's funny to me because man okay so someone else is not altering playing with the code of our program listen it's funny to me because this is how like man contextualizes things right man looks at a thing and it's like especially in this age and we're taking what exists as an inherent property of our consciousness and we're essentially giving our power away and saying like the world is just runner created by a machine could me know this isn't an Asimov story like good I love as a mouse don't get me wrong all the spirituality could be programmed as well but it's it's the simulation is that where we're merging back into our relationship with higher conscious us so what's happening is we're experiencing our own quantum perception in real time because the age of shifting it's not a computer computers are from us you know what I mean computers are from us yeah it's like fire it's like programming of the quantum world and the string theory yes the programming of the quantum world is happening from consciousness computers are a reflection of consciousness that the idea that we are like are we in a simulation yes but the simulation is that what's happening is we have four bodies that exist at once okay we have our real time body that exists here we have the body that we experience in dreams which is our non-physical body which uses non-physical energy and then we have our quantum consciousness it is the version of ourselves that exists in a higher dimension that's able to watch over us through a lens of time that is not relative to material space we exist in a quantum state right we exist in in not only two places at once being here we exist in two places or maybe even more at once in the universe they say like be a witness like that's you tuning into what's actually happening upstairs so it's it's really about the idea of our relationship to consciousness it's our relationship to consciousness is a simulation we're just waking up to the fact that we we perceive time falsely we think that time is well not falsely it's just relative to the dimension of the age and the dimension of our relationship to the consciousness and the center of energy in the universe we think the time is like a line like Western time as a time line or Eastern time as a circle even the you guys are a circle but it's not a line or a circle something closer to it dot now we've been hearing razor blade on the show a little bit time is happening all at once all around us at once and we're able to access this percent this is why I teach people lucid dreaming we can access this perception of time in dreams yeah we did a little astral projection on our previous show just a lot very last one so okay Tony Lane question about what is the deepest emotion you've ever felt hmm I don't think there's a word for it was what was the feeling like because it's beyond the idea of the deepest emotion I've ever felt is an idea that there is an emotion that is beyond the sum of feeling because it's an out-of-body experience mm-hmm people quantify that with words like but they are overused words that I think people represent falsely like what is it like bliss or love or ecstasy or any of these other you know I think it's the most real emotion I've ever felt because it's the thing that makes you more aware of the idea that you're existing beyond your own physical body beautiful island so source is how I would describe it mm-hmm source is the deepest and most intense feeling I think I've ever felt source source yeah I like that a lot all right what do you think's the most beautiful thing in the world there is no most for me there is no most you know what I actually think is beautiful what other people perceive to be ugly but it's but it's true of heart that I think is the is the real definition of beauty easy is not what is just seen as beautiful real beauty is when you'll see something that is beautiful and that is hidden mmm the rest of the world looks on this this book called by Umberto Eco called on ugliness and it's maybe my loved art history and it's maybe my favorite art history book that's ever been written because it can textual eise's ugliness and art in the way that almost all other art historians work to contextualize beauty and that real beauty is like Cyrano de Bergerac it is the man who is ashamed of the way that he looks hiding in the bushes having another man read his poetry to the woman that he loves in an attempt to help her be happy yeah that's good stuff that is the beauty you know why that's real beauty because that is the beauty that more than any other form of beauty needs to be seen yeah appreciative yeah yeah I agreed that that brings actualization to people that brings transcendence to them it brings them meaning and value and fulfillment from their tribe I agree that's that's good that's very unique we haven't had that one for sure also the source answer was really good as well yeah Tony Ling Casserly wow what a great conversation yeah yeah you're fun yeah good yeah thank you for coming on the show thank you thank you sure thank you this has been such a pleasure I think that we have a lot to still unpack you'll have to do another session sometime soon yeah so much to unpack that was a lot of fun everyone if you had a good time watching definitely share this content please share it we need more people talking about these thought-provoking subjects join us subscribe hit that subscribe button join us in the community give us a comment below with your thoughts give us a like join us on patreon we need to sustain our studio need to sustain our electricity our food our internet all that stuff join us let us grow help us blossom we need people chopping up these videos and getting these clips join us there we'll have Tony Laine cassowaries link in the bio all good description there so we will see you soon thank you for tuning in you

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